#redis on irc.freenode.net 2012-01-19 (txt)

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[01:32] <blueflycn> hi there
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[01:32] <blueflycn> has anyone tried to build a redis cluster?
[01:32] <blueflycn> what's the biggest redis cluster known so far?
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[02:17] <ale1> hello
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[03:54] <Polynomial> do long keys (e.g. ~150 chars) cause performance problems?
[03:56] <Polynomial> at the moment, I end up with keys looking like this:
[03:56] <Polynomial> dccs1:Commands:S/b03087894386f6364fbfa8cd7aef2fce44bce513:H/qa_prod_011_8274c4dc353f768f7c1ea1b4d0bf1ae2:CommandAck:C/250103291
[03:59] <Polynomial> if they do, I can just move those hashes into a hashtable and give them IDs
[03:59] <Polynomial> just prefer it to be easily searchable
[04:04] <michel_v> they shouldn't cause problems
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[04:10] <Polynomial> awesome
[04:11] <Polynomial> I've got a few k in there and all seems fast
[04:11] <Polynomial> just wanted to check if there was anything I wasn't aware of
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[04:55] <ypcx> hei
[04:56] <ypcx> probably a common question, but how do you compute a score for a string, in order to put it into a sorted set (with ZADD)?
[04:56] <ypcx> i assume you need to encode that string as a number, and this is limited to a certain max length of the string, that the 'score' data type can handle
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[05:21] <n__> is there any free redis hosting out there more than 5mb ?
[05:25] <soveran> ypcx: it's not a common question, what's the use case?
[05:26] <soveran> n__: not that I'm aware of
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[05:26] <ypcx> soveran: i'd like to use the sorted set facility to sort arbitrary strings by their ranks
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[05:27] <ypcx> soveran: i just checked the "score" in redis sources and it's a double, so i'm now looking how to encode a string into double so that it can be sorted
[05:27] <soveran> ypcx: the part I don't understand is why you need to encode a string as a double
[05:27] <ypcx> n__: why not to open an AWS account, and run a micro instance, which is free for the first year, and then $16/mo after that
[05:28] <ypcx> soveran: e.g. I have a few strings: 'aaa', 'bbb', 'ccc' - and i want to store them in redis as sorted set - how do i do that? I think only with the ZADD command, right?
[05:28] <soveran> n__: what ypcx said is good advice. I can offer you free hosting for a month if you want, not sure what your need is.
[05:29] <ypcx> so i can rank them manually ZADD 'aaa' 1 'bbb' 2 'ccc' 3 etc.. but I want the 1, 2, 3 be done automatically for arbitrary strings
[05:29] <soveran> yes, and why do you need a sorted set?
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[05:30] <ypcx> soveran: to e.g. implement a sorted list in the UI, basically to have a data sorted in the db for quick access, just like indexes in classic DBs
[05:30] <ypcx> i know redis can sort on demand, but i'd like it pre-sorted
[05:31] <ypcx> i'm very new to redis, maybe i'm missing something obvious
[05:31] <soveran> how many words will you put in that sorted set?
[05:32] <ypcx> i don't have a concrete use case, so i'd say i'm looking to find a way how to do it, and what are the limits
[05:34] <ypcx> double is 64-bit when compiled on x64 arch, but there are few bits for sign and the floating point, but small strings should be OK to encode as doubles, for the purpose of ranking in redis' sorted sets
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[05:38] <Seldaek> ypcx: AFAIK there is no way to do it, but I find it an interesting use case. I think you should post on the ML and see what antirez has to say
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[05:39] <Seldaek> I think for not-immense-amounts of strings, doing it on the fly will be fast enough
[05:39] <ypcx> Seldaek: that is true actually, i remember sorting 100k strings in Java on the fly, was in milliseconds
[05:40] <ypcx> but would be cool to have this instant
[05:40] <Seldaek> ypcx: actually..
[05:40] <Seldaek> take a look towards the end of http://redis.io/commands/sort - you can store with a timeout the result of a SORT call
[05:40] <Seldaek> the stored SORT result is a list (which is pre-sorted)
[05:40] <Seldaek> so that is in effect an index
[05:41] <Seldaek> now I guess the question is how often your index changes
[05:41] <Seldaek> but that's the same for RDBMS though, writes kill the perfs of indices
[05:41] <ypcx> that's an interesting use of caching, thx
[05:42] <ypcx> yes, it's about tradeoffs, balancing stuff
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[05:43] <ypcx> the traditional "display all my business data in an arbitrarily sortable table" use case is evil anyway.. e.g. google never does that
[05:43] <berak> n__, http://docs.dotcloud.com/services/redis
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[05:45] <Seldaek> berak: 100$/mo to have your own domain on it:/
[05:46] <Seldaek> not so free hu
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[05:47] <berak> k, ;(
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[05:51] <ypcx> so, how would one go about storing a really big sorted set of strings in redis? one that is not a good candidate for on-demand sorting and caching? it's possible that this is not what redis is for, and a specialized text indexing / sorting system should be used for that
[05:54] <ypcx> e.g. http://sphinxsearch.com/
[05:55] <ron> sphinx search... pfft.
[05:55] <ypcx> ron: any alternatives?:)
[05:55] <ron> lucene/solr/elasticsearch
[05:56] <ypcx> that's all based on Java, right?
[05:56] <ron> and Java is evil?
[05:57] <ypcx> welll... :) when i'm looking for minimalistic approaches, i always try to find a C / C++ implementation first
[05:58] <ron> you never said minimalistic :)
[05:58] <ypcx> lucene is great as it can index many formats
[05:58] <ron> lucene and solr are one and the same.
[05:58] <ypcx> well i'm on Redis channel! :)
[05:58] <ron> so? redis is awesome. I can't call it minimalistic though.
[05:58] <ron> memcached is minimalistic.
[05:58] <ron> and stupid.
[05:58] <ron> :p
[05:58] <ypcx> compared to mongo i'd say it is
[05:59] <ypcx> there's also memcachedb lol
[05:59] <ron> comparing redis and mongo is like comparing an apple with a horse.
[05:59] <ypcx> yes, you can say apple is minimalistic compared to horse
[05:59] <ron> uh, no.
[06:01] <ypcx> yes, both mongo and redis store data... and you can get the same core functionality from both, but in redis it'd take more work, but ended up being much faster and flexible
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[06:02] <ron> well, since I don't want to go into it, sure :)
[06:02] <ypcx> except the string indexing perhaps:)
[06:02] <ron> and sharding.
[06:02] <ron> and support for complex objects.
[06:02] <ron> and map/reduce support.
[06:02] <ypcx> i think you see differences because you want to see differences:) sure there are differences
[06:02] <ron> and a complex query language.
[06:03] <ypcx> i said - you can work around those - i meant in client code
[06:03] <ron> use a file system then. it's also a datastore.
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[06:03] <ron> that's as minimalistic as it gets. and most likely written in C.
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[06:04] <ypcx> the problem with anything somewhat complex is that you're gonna hit a wall sooner or later
[06:04] <ron> you can also use facebook to store your data. create a user per object, and add some meta data to the user. even like things. that can also work.
[06:05] <ypcx> (and i'm not a big fan of hybrid architecture)
[06:05] <ypcx> facebook or filesystem - but i like my stuff to fly, not to crawl:)
[06:06] <ron> then use twitter.
[06:06] <ron> twitter flies.
[06:07] <ypcx> are you offering me these based on my comparison of mongo and redis? there are ways to compare them
[06:07] <ypcx> despite their differences
[06:08] <ron> okay.
[06:08] <ypcx> and they have to be compared if i want to have a fast project, and don't want to run both
[06:09] <ypcx> they both need to fit in memory for the best performance, but redis goes about that openly, unlike mongo:)
[06:09] <ScottKevill> ypcx: Tokyo Dystopia is lean and fast.
[06:09] <ScottKevill> For text indexing/searching.
[06:10] <ypcx> ScottKevill: thanks!
[06:10] <ScottKevill> I don't think it's easily possible to make it RAM-based, but disk-based is still fast as it does do caching.
[06:11] <ypcx> ScottKevill: no for a text indexing, i think ram based would be a waste
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[06:11] <Seldaek> ypcx: not happy with the cached index anymore? :p
[06:12] <ScottKevill> It does have the ability to incrementally update an index, rather than rebuilding from scratch each time an update occurs, which is also useful.
[06:12] <Seldaek> ypcx: that said, as I previously said, send a mail to the redis mailing list, it's a use case worth exploring
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[06:12] <ypcx> Seldaek: we're talking about an external system now; i'll check that mailing list
[06:13] <ypcx> Seldaek: basically i'm only looking for a solution between string lists stored in redis, ordered on demand an cached - and between a huge number of strings in an external system
[06:13] <ypcx> i mean - i'm searching that space of solutions - between those two which i know about
[06:14] <ScottKevill> Is it a huge number simply because it's substrings/suffixes?
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[06:15] <Polynomial> I have to say I'm incredibly impressed at our Redis install. the PHP box has a 1Gbps (1000Base-T) line direct to our db box, which has 16GB of RAM dedicated to Redis.
[06:15] <ypcx> ScottKevill: no, basically let's say i have 100k users, and want to be able to get the top 10, when they are sorted by an email address, hmm
[06:15] <Polynomial> and it's incredibly fast
[06:15] <ScottKevill> Top 10 by what attribute?
[06:16] <ypcx> ScottKevill: email address sorted alphabetically - but i made that up, it's a stupid example
[06:17] <ScottKevill> A sorted set will sort lexicographilly if the score values are the same.
[06:17] <ypcx> basically in sql you write 'select * from user order by email asc'... but the sheer possibility of this should not indicate that it's a good or meaningful thing to do
[06:18] <ypcx> ScottKevill: ok, in redis, there's the sorted set facility, you can use ZADD to add things, but you have to provide the 'score'
[06:18] <ScottKevill> *lexicographically
[06:18] <ypcx> ScottKevill: so how do I compute the score based on email address
[06:18] <Polynomial> you set them all the same
[06:18] <ScottKevill> It's optional.
[06:18] <ypcx> *eureka moment*
[06:18] <ScottKevill> It doesn't even have to be related to the string.
[06:18] <ypcx> really?
[06:19] <ypcx> the ZADD doesn't list it as [optional] so i did not know
[06:19] <Polynomial> you can just set the score to 0
[06:19] <Polynomial> for all of them
[06:19] <Polynomial> and it'll sort them by email
[06:20] <Polynomial> or whatever
[06:20] <ScottKevill> Sorry, not optional in syntax.
[06:20] <ypcx> yes, it works!!!
[06:20] <ScottKevill> But yeah, you can ignore it.
[06:20] <ypcx> haha, thanks
[06:20] <ScottKevill> Be aware of upper/lowercase.
[06:21] <ScottKevill> 'a' will be sorted after 'B'.
[06:21] <ypcx> yep, that's fine, i guess redis can store unicode? not sure
[06:21] <michel_v> it can store anything
[06:21] <Polynomial> it's encoding agnostic
[06:21] <ScottKevill> It doesn't care. It's all binary.
[06:21] <ypcx> cool
[06:21] <Polynomial> commands are ASCII, beyond that it doesn't care at all.
[06:22] <ScottKevill> (Which is why it doesn't try to be smart about case)
[06:22] <Polynomial> we put images in it :]
[06:22] <ypcx> good use of RAM! :)
[06:22] <Polynomial> yup
[06:22] <Polynomial> well we have to pull them out very quickly
[06:22] <Polynomial> and we have 16GB dedicated to Redis
[06:22] <ScottKevill> For lots of small images, Redis would be good.
[06:22] <Polynomial> ^
[06:22] <ScottKevill> As the disk seeks would be terrible.
[06:22] <Polynomial> we have a few million 32x32 images
[06:23] <Polynomial> few hundred thousand 64x64
[06:23] <Polynomial> Redis is frickin' awesome for it
[06:23] <ypcx> yes.. well when you have a high transaction site and which makes lots of money, redis still makes more sense than any other solution, and will come out cheaper:)
[06:23] <Polynomial> the db backs to a 36GB 15k RPM SAS disk anyway
[06:23] <Polynomial> so it's ludicrously fast
[06:24] <Polynomial> or, rather, two of them in mirror.
[06:24] <ypcx> AWS 68 GB RAM machine = $2 per hour
[06:25] <Polynomial> I'd like to see a company offering cloud-GPU
[06:25] <Polynomial> like EC2 but on a bunch of Radeon cards :P
[06:25] <ypcx> (that's when you don't use the spot on-demand instace, which is $0.7/hour)
[06:25] <Polynomial> I suppose the IO is the issue
[06:25] <ScottKevill> Too much in power costs.
[06:26] <Polynomial> not if you charge appropriately
[06:26] <ScottKevill> Power and heat dissipation, I'd guess.
[06:26] <Polynomial> everyone seems to thing GPUs run hot, they really don't
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[06:26] <Polynomial> it's just that they're on stupidly small heatsinks
[06:26] <ypcx> i'd like to see a x86 chipset GPU's taking hold - wasn't intel planning something like that - larabee or what it was called
[06:26] <ScottKevill> Only thin I've used EC2 for is load-testing.
[06:26] <ScottKevill> That was a shortly after it was brought out.
[06:27] <Polynomial> we use EC2 for peak load handling
[06:27] <ScottKevill> Nothing like bringing up a bunch of instances and hammering a test server.
[06:27] <Polynomial> when our servers get a bit dicey, we fire up an EC2 instance and offload 10% to it
[06:27] <ypcx> EC2's main problem is that the disks are connected via network - that's why I'd prefer to run Redis there and keep it all in memory, and store snapshots to S3 if I really care
[06:27] <Polynomial> the spikes only happen once every couple months, so it's not worth investing in hardware
[06:27] <Polynomial> yeah, IO is horrible on cloud
[06:27] <ScottKevill> I don't trust EC2 for anything important.
[06:28] <Polynomial> rackspace has a real pain in the ass issue with disk IO
[06:28] <Polynomial> it's fine until someone on the same storage array as you decides to decomission an instance
[06:28] <Polynomial> and BLAM
[06:28] <Polynomial> scrubber kicks in, IO goes to hell
[06:28] <Polynomial> for about an hour
[06:28] <ypcx> heh
[06:29] <Polynomial> ypcx - they scrapped x86 GPUs in favour of embedded GPUs (like AMD Fusion)
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[06:30] <ypcx> Polynomial: sigh.. but i like to watch the trend of increasing RAM capacities on GPU chips.. soon it will may be possible to have a (massively parallel) DB in there, lol
[06:31] <Polynomial> indeed
[06:31] <Polynomial> running a db in GPU memory seems efficient, actually
[06:31] <Polynomial> especially for key lookups
[06:31] <Polynomial> problem is you can't do branching easily (or quickly)
[06:31] <ypcx> also sorting
[06:31] <Polynomial> yeah
[06:32] <ypcx> yep they should do something about the branching.. x86 not really needed
[06:32] <Polynomial> also for large operations where you do the same thing to a subset of rows
[06:32] <Polynomial> so if you want to increment a half billion integers, GPU seems like a good choice
[06:32] <Polynomial> (assuming 32-bit, thus 2GB of GPU memory)
[06:33] <ypcx> yes, the von neumann design is really limiting, we need to join cpu and ram somehow, to increase "processability" .. gpu with big ram gets close though
[06:33] <ScottKevill> Memristors.
[06:33] <Polynomial> well the problem with "joining" CPU and RAM is DMA
[06:33] <Polynomial> DMA is immensely efficient
[06:34] <Polynomial> no CPU interaction if devices want to store data in RAM
[06:34] <Polynomial> or read from RAM
[06:34] <Polynomial> couldn't have modern graphics without DMA really
[06:34] <Polynomial> since it allows the GPU to pull the frame buffer from system memory
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[06:35] <ypcx> yes but imagine having thousands of micro-cpus intertwined in the ram chip
[06:35] <Polynomial> true
[06:35] <ypcx> i gotta go, dogs don't wait:) thanks for the help guys
[06:35] <Polynomial> I suppose GPUs with a huge amount of local VRAM would actually benefit from direct-CPU-write memory access, actually
[06:35] <Polynomial> .o/~
[06:35] ypcx -> ypcx|away
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[08:18] <Barbaren> hello, anyone here using phpredis? I'm having some issues connecting to my redis daemon, the error i get is "Redis server went away"
[08:18] <Barbaren> any ideas? =)
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[08:19] <soveran> Barbaren: can you connect with redis-cli?
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[08:20] <Barbaren> I haven't tried, but connecting from ruby worked
[08:20] <Barbaren> with the redis gem
[08:20] <Barbaren> connecting from redis-cli works fine
[08:20] <Barbaren> just tried
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[08:21] <yessopie> how long elapses between the connect attempt starts and the "Redis server went away"?
[08:21] <Barbaren> one line of code? =p
[08:22] <Barbaren> sec, i gist the code
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[08:22] <Barbaren> yessopie: here https://gist.github.com/1640962
[08:23] <yessopie> so do a microtime(true) before and after it to figure out how much time passes before it says that
[08:23] <Barbaren> ok
[08:23] <yessopie> also, make sure phpredis and redis versions are compatible
[08:23] <yessopie> which versions of each are you using?
[08:24] <yessopie> also I think you mean to connect to port 6379, not 6379
[08:24] <yessopie> not 6397
[08:24] <Barbaren> right
[08:24] <Barbaren> that works :D
[08:24] <Barbaren> i'm an diot
[08:24] <Barbaren> idiot
[08:24] <Barbaren> thanks
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[08:25] <yessopie> np!
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[08:48] <Polynomial> just trying to work out refcounts, wanna check I've got this right
[08:48] <Polynomial> OBJECT REFCOUNT returns the number of references an object has
[08:48] <Polynomial> and by default it'll be 1 because each object is referred to by a key, right?
[08:49] <Polynomial> and when an operation hits a key (read, write, whatever) the refcount goes up by 1 during the operation, then decrements when the operation completes
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[08:49] <Polynomial> and if a decrement refcount call makes refcount=0, the object is free'd
[08:49] <Polynomial> do I have that right?
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[09:08] <yessopie> I thought Redis was single-threaded, so I don't get what the refcount is for
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[09:08] <yessopie> if it's so that you can't delete an object while some thread is GETting it, what about something that modifies the object? What protects against that?
[09:09] <Polynomial> same thing
[09:09] <Polynomial> refcount is checked
[09:10] <Polynomial> refcount is 1 when only a key references the object
[09:10] <Polynomial> when it's >1, something's accessing it
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[09:10] <Polynomial> when it's 0, it's been deleted (and the whole object should just disappear anyway)
[09:11] <Polynomial> I do like the integer trick in object.c :P
[09:11] <Polynomial> with the pool of 0 to 10000
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[09:11] <Polynomial> and Redis isn't entirely single threaded, from what I can tell
[09:11] <Polynomial> it seems there's deferred operations
[09:11] <Polynomial> probably used to queue extra stuff whilst disk IO is happening
[09:12] <yessopie> the main thread that actually does stuff doesn't do any disk IO
[09:13] <yessopie> refcounts aren't useful for concurrency anyway
[09:13] <yessopie> only for when there are multiple references to the same object
[09:13] <yessopie> on the same thread
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[09:14] <Polynomial> ah, ok
[09:15] <Polynomial> there we go then
[09:15] <yessopie> saving is done by a forked Redis, which is essentially a snapshot of the memory contents at the time when the save started
[09:16] <yessopie> it's a separate process that doesn't share memory with the main process
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[09:18] <yessopie> hmm, actually you are right, you can use refcount for concurrency, though it's weird to use it instead of read/write locks
[09:20] <Polynomial> I think it gets done via a LOCK prefix, on x86 at least
[09:20] <yessopie> you'd use LOCK when you are changing the refcount iself
[09:20] <yessopie> itself
[09:20] <yessopie> in order to know what it was before you changed it
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[10:08] <Kenjin> hey
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[11:17] <sigmonsays_> Is there a connection pool implementation for hiredis or should I do it myself?
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[11:18] <pietern> sigmonsays_: there is none
[11:21] <sigmonsays_> bugger, aight.
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[11:37] <brynb> hey, is anyone aware of something like iriscouch.com for redis? i.e. a db hosting service that's free for really small/development-only usage
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[11:42] <jano> brynb: try http://redistogo.com/
[11:43] <brynb> awesome! thanks!
[11:44] <yessopie> what are some uses for having a stand-alone Redis server that isn't in the same data center as another server?
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[11:48] <fzzbt> $5/month for 20MB, lol
[11:49] <xb95> yessopie: a slave that does backups.
[11:50] <yessopie> hmm, ok
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[11:56] <xb95> yessopie: or a remote sysetm that you can query with low latency if you want to have two data centers doing work.
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[11:57] <jano> dlap: \o/
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[14:37] <sx2020> i love redis
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[14:38] <sx2020> anyone else here love redis?
[14:39] <insin> yes, yes indeed
[14:39] <sx2020> question about ordered sets. i have been assigning very large scores to items, e.g. 1327012764097
[14:39] <sx2020> will this cause zrange to be slow for large sets?
[14:40] <sx2020> compared to scores < 100
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[14:42] <sx2020> anyone have any idea?
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[14:45] <mjr_> sx2020: I don't think that'll make it slower. That's what we do also.
[14:46] <sx2020> ok cool. you are using timestamps (ms since epoch) as well?
[14:46] <sx2020> actually i'm dividing by 1000, so it will be 3 digits less than what i posted
[14:46] <mjr_> Yes, we have a node.js-based backend so all of our times are naturally JavaScript times.
[14:48] <sx2020> cool me to. i wonder if there is ever a reason to use a set rather than ordered set. so much more powerful
[14:48] <mjr_> zsets use more memory
[14:50] <sx2020> significantly more?
[14:51] <mjr_> I guess it depends on how large your set key strings are
[14:51] <mjr_> If they are large, then probably not that big of a deal.
[14:52] <sx2020> you mean "if they are not* large" ?
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[15:22] <mjr_> sx2020: if your set member strings are large, then their storage is probably large enough that the extra overhead of zest vs. set is probably ignorable.
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[00:00] --- Fri Jan 20 2012