#redis on irc.freenode.net 2012-01-15 (txt)

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[10:40] <sivy> hey, is there a way to HUP redis-server?
[10:40] <sivy> mine seems to be stuck
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[12:07] <skomorokh> Hi. I think I want to use redis, that is, the app I have in mind will most likely fit in memory and if the system goes down and a few seconds of writes are lost it's not catastrophic.
[12:08] <skomorokh> I've done Rails and Drupal and misc other stuff before, but haven't yet ventured into the lightweight NoSQL type tools that seem to exist in several million flavours.
[12:09] <skomorokh> What I can't quite grasp though is how to best handled authentication?
[12:10] <Kosma> skomorokh: you mean authentication in connection to a NoSQL server?
[12:11] <skomorokh> Ya.
[12:11] <Kosma> in 90% cases there is none
[12:11] <Kosma> :)
[12:11] <Kosma> you just firewall the port and that's all
[12:11] <skomorokh> Right.
[12:11] <skomorokh> And get at it through some server-side app.
[12:11] <Kosma> NoSQL is meant to be fast. authentication is slow :) lookups, user databases, etc.
[12:11] <Kosma> yep
[12:12] <skomorokh> I don't get why you need anything else than auth and data store on the server though.
[12:12] <skomorokh> Can absolutely everything else happen in client js?
[12:13] <vsmatck> Redis doesn't have authentication. Others do. VPN kills performance.
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[12:14] <vsmatck> This is a problem people don't talk much about because most people never launch anything.
[12:14] <skomorokh> I'm not expecting redis to have authentication.
[12:14] <skomorokh> I'm asking which authentication piece people like to use with Redis :)
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[12:14] <vsmatck> I'd like to know as well. I've only used openVPN but I don't much care for it.
[12:14] <skomorokh> And wondering why I appear to be confused about the server side of things. I really don't get why we need anything else?
[12:15] <vsmatck> You need a http server. That's what javascript talks to.
[12:15] <skomorokh> Sure. And it gives access to the filesystem.
[12:16] <skomorokh> files + datastore + auth ...why do i hardly ever see application stacks like that? there are all these new tools out that people are combining every which way, but it seems they always have a heavier server-side tahn that
[12:16] <skomorokh> and ya... there seems to be precious little discussion about the auth component.
[12:17] <skomorokh> am I just looking in the wrong place? I feel like I'm just not getting something here...
[12:17] <vsmatck> We're talking in the context of a web application right? I just assumed that.
[12:17] <vsmatck> But I probably shouldn't.
[12:17] <skomorokh> ya
[12:17] <skomorokh> hm, good point. but pretty sure most of what i'm looking at is talking about webapps too.
[12:17] <skomorokh> CRUD of somesort oftentimes.
[12:17] <vsmatck> A server component to go between the client and redis is necessary. It can be very thin though.
[12:18] <vsmatck> Like some sort of REST API in front of redis.
[12:19] <skomorokh> sure
[12:19] <skomorokh> js can't connect directly for very sensible sanboxing reasons
[12:20] <skomorokh> but i want to have some stuff publically readable while the writing is mostly done by authenticated users. with different users having ownership of different datasets.
[12:21] <skomorokh> ideally in some sort of group/role based kind of system.
[12:21] <vsmatck> Authentication is one use case redis is good for. It's so fast you can authenticate every page load.
[12:21] <vsmatck> I personally use it for this.
[12:21] <skomorokh> did you roll your own?
[12:21] <vsmatck> yeah, I made my own authentication.
[12:22] <vsmatck> Most people don't like the idea of doing that. But I know what I'm doing (famous last words).
[12:22] <skomorokh> i dunno, there are so many projects floating around right now i get the idea of minimising external dependencies.
[12:23] <skomorokh> if you still want to use your codebase in 3 years.
[12:23] <vsmatck> I can understand that. The redis developers are that way too.
[12:23] <skomorokh> it's not so hard really, check password, give session token. check token.
[12:24] <vsmatck> It can still be a good chunk of work to do.
[12:24] <skomorokh> and it's something you want to be careful with.
[12:25] <vsmatck> One way to avoid it is to integrate with the authentication system of something else. Like facebook.
[12:25] <skomorokh> i passionately want to discourage that.
[12:25] <vsmatck> Most people do. :)
[12:25] <skomorokh> too bad openid dropped the ball and no one's really picked it up
[12:27] <skomorokh> so apparently i need to start a project
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[12:28] <skomorokh> a nice access control tool with a REST abstraction and pluggable datastores
[12:28] <skomorokh> but surely this exists?
[12:28] <vsmatck> I think a REST API for authentication would be too heavy. If it's something you want to do at every page load.
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[12:28] <skomorokh> leave it the headers instead
[12:29] <skomorokh> i was think more the REST abstraction of the datastore being bundled with the auth
[12:29] <skomorokh> since it's the data this thing is being the gatekeeper of
[12:32] <vsmatck> Some type of authentication software users could download and use that's high performance would be useful. A lot of large websites "fake" authentication at every page load by assuming your identities are correct and prompting you for login when you want to do something that actually requires authentication like modifying account settings.
[12:33] <vsmatck> If you've used ebay that's what they do. How it appears you're logged in, then you go to buy something and it makes you log in again.
[12:33] <vsmatck> This is because they don't have the performance to auth every page.
[12:33] <skomorokh> well, i can worry about that sort of optimisation when i have that sort of traffic
[12:34] <skomorokh> in this case it's a matter of some few people adding data to be consumed by the public.
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[12:36] <skomorokh> so ideally i want the minimum of stuff in the way on the server and just let the client handle it as there will already be enough javascript there anyway that we should just go all the way and do everything there
[12:37] <skomorokh> but maybe that's foolish
[12:37] <skomorokh> must be, because i don't see it happening
[12:38] <skomorokh> which is why i ask... if i think something is obvious and no one seems to be doing it, it is much more likely that i'm confused than it is that i know something everyone else doesn't.
[12:38] <vsmatck> Some web pages are a lot more javascript heavy than others. Some people render templates on the server and send pages to the client. Some people just have a lot of javascript which fetches resources and builds the page on the client.
[12:38] <vsmatck> I personally think server side templates are easier.
[12:38] <vsmatck> Google+ is an example of a javascript heavy website.
[12:39] <vsmatck> But they have a army of programmers to deal with all the little portability bugs in javascript.
[12:39] <skomorokh> it seems the main reason to render it on the server is that the tools aren't very good for doing it on the client.
[12:40] <vsmatck> I totally agree with that.
[12:40] <skomorokh> a rich client needs to handle the portability anyhow just for the display
[12:40] <skomorokh> hence jquery, moo, sencha, titanium and a million million other ui libraries
[12:40] <vsmatck> Browsers are pretty bad to begin with. But it's what is widely deployed so we use them. There are still better and worse ways to construct interactive web pages.
[12:41] <vsmatck> yeah. Something like jquery is a definite improvement.
[12:41] <skomorokh> so if i'm making a rich client anyhow for the ui
[12:41] <skomorokh> why template anything?
[12:41] <skomorokh> just send it some JSON-blob in answer to a query
[12:41] <vsmatck> You may not need to.
[12:41] <skomorokh> if the auth in the headers checks out
[12:42] <skomorokh> well, i think i might need to... just because it seems no one else is
[12:42] <vsmatck> yeah, the AJAX request can include a session cookie. The server just won't return the sensitive data if the user fails auth.
[12:42] <skomorokh> right.
[12:42] <skomorokh> where's that piece?
[12:42] <skomorokh> what are some of them called?
[12:43] <skomorokh> that are aware of redis or ideally an abstraction of a data store, so i can have at least some granularity in access control to the data?
[12:43] <vsmatck> Not sure. I've never looked.
[12:44] <vsmatck> I'm putting the complexity in the backend (app server) for my stuff so I have to deal with client javascript as little as possible.
[12:44] <skomorokh> because you do server templating and rolled your own auth, right
[12:44] <vsmatck> yeah
[12:45] <skomorokh> ie6/7 is nearly dead, webkit/moz/ie9 have a pretty useful subset of js where things are consistent, no?
[12:46] <vsmatck> yeah, and you can insure (mostly) that you only access that subset by using something like jquery.
[12:46] <skomorokh> and that's mainly for dealing with the DOM
[12:46] <skomorokh> the fiddly stuff is all presentation anyhow
[12:47] <skomorokh> in terms of manipulating JSON data, i don't see your "ew, inconsistent client platform" argument?
[12:48] <vsmatck> It's probably personal taste. It's certainly less consistent than server side templating where you know exactly what it will do for every user. But like everything it's a tradeoff.
[12:49] <skomorokh> well, ultimately it's the browser rendering it so i don't see that you really gain much in terms of knowing exactly what it will do :)
[12:50] <skomorokh> anyhow, i'm sort of interested in building this datastore abstraction / gatekeeper layer
[12:50] <skomorokh> do you think it should be its own webserver?
[12:50] <vsmatck> Well yeah. I probably shouldn't say I know exactly what it will do. Because I don't. :)
[12:50] <skomorokh> or instead a module on some existing one, likely nginx or apache?
[12:51] <vsmatck> I have a better idea of what it will do than if I use javascript because I'm doing less manipulation of the DOM to generate pages.
[12:51] <vsmatck> Of course some stuff absolutely requires javascript.
[12:51] <vsmatck> So every web application is mixed.
[12:51] <vsmatck> But you can choose where to lean.
[12:52] <skomorokh> a tag in your html or some domjs ... aren't either of those just instructions to the browser to create a dom element?
[12:53] <vsmatck> The complexity of the browser interpretting html (very complex) is still less complex than the browser interpreting javascript to generate html it has to interpret.
[12:54] <skomorokh> i don't buy it.
[12:54] <vsmatck> On the server side I use super simple templates. So it's very easy to figure out what they'll generate.
[12:55] <skomorokh> The complexity of the browser interpreting html is almost exactly equivalent to the complexity of the browser interpreting the SUBSET of js that generates the dom (createElement,createTextNode,appendChild)
[12:55] <vsmatck> Hm. I'm pretty confident about the point of html -> final layout vs javascript -> html -> final layout.
[12:56] <vsmatck> The complexity there is additive. So it is more complex. That delta between the two is what I don't like. But at that point, like how big of a delta there has to be for it to not be worth it, is a value judgement. Personal taste.
[12:57] <vsmatck> You probably fall on one side and I fall on the other. Maybe a result of background.
[12:57] <vsmatck> I started with super strict statically typed systems programming languages.
[12:57] <vsmatck> I've noticed people who start with dynamic languages tend to fall on the other side. :)
[12:58] <skomorokh> i'm yet another ruined from the start by basic
[12:58] <vsmatck> I program BASIC at my day job. :-/
[12:58] <vsmatck> Believe it or not, people still use it.
[12:59] <skomorokh> presumably not quickbasic
[12:59] <vsmatck> I've used AcroBasic specifically.
[12:59] <skomorokh> heh, fun name
[13:00] <skomorokh> so it occurs to me that including the webserver or not is not just an implementation detail but a very trivial one at that
[13:00] <vsmatck> Google says, "Did you mean: acrobatic".
[13:00] <skomorokh> i've got my browser set to use verbatim mode by default
[13:00] <vsmatck> yeah, it can be a super simple webserver.
[13:00] <skomorokh> google has gotten a bit too fuzzy for me lately
[13:01] <skomorokh> what i really need to figure out
[13:01] <skomorokh> is the protocol. the syntax of it
[13:01] <jacqui> skomorokh: have you seen http://documentcloud.github.com/backbone/#Introduction?
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[13:02] <jacqui> I don't know what your full use case is, but the little that I read made me think of something like backbone.js
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[13:02] <skomorokh> jacqui: i noticed backbone a lot as i was digging through all these new toys from the past couple years
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[13:03] <skomorokh> jacqui: but i think it's just a way to structure the client app and doesn't suggest any particular model for authentication/groups?
[13:03] <jacqui> oh, no it doesn't. I was responding to the templating discussion.
[13:03] <jacqui> I hadn't scrolled back that far :)
[13:04] <skomorokh> jacqui: yah, that's kind of the crux of it though---i'm looking to build an app and see there are a lot of nice tools for client-side mvc, ui, etc. and there are all these nice easy to scale datastores
[13:05] <jacqui> what about an nginx module?
[13:05] <skomorokh> jacqui: the only thing that those two don't give me is access control
[13:05] <skomorokh> jacqui: sure
[13:05] <jacqui> I need to brush up on my C and start writing stuff like that
[13:05] <jacqui> ah, I see there's an nginx redis module but it's for caching
[13:05] <skomorokh> jacqui: but it needs to be aware of the data store too in order to let you protect this or that portion of your data?
[13:06] <skomorokh> jacqui: so i don't know if the access control and data store abstraction are separable?
[13:07] <skomorokh> plus it would be nice if the access control was stored in the data store
[13:07] <skomorokh> would that be enough to make it replicable?
[13:07] <skomorokh> i think so?
[13:07] <vsmatck> I think they are. SASL separates the two. That's what the project is all about.
[13:07] <skomorokh> i use that in my mail server but i don't even really know about it
[13:08] <skomorokh> there's just so much software out there
[13:08] <vsmatck> It's meant to be a uniform interface to different authentication mechanisms.
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[13:09] <skomorokh> cool, and then your datastore could just as easily have your ldap users
[13:10] <skomorokh> i haven't heard of people using this on the web all that much
[13:11] <skomorokh> i wonder if you can make a SASL mechanism out of openid?
[13:11] <jacqui> ah, you could plug one of any data stores in. like, use redis or ldap or whatever
[13:12] <skomorokh> ya, i don't think i want to externalise the user storage
[13:12] <jacqui> you're talking about building a datastore-agnostic layer for auth in web apps?
[13:12] <jacqui> or at least datastore-configurable
[13:12] <skomorokh> exactly
[13:12] <jacqui> that would be cool
[13:12] <skomorokh> because that's all you really need on the server
[13:12] <skomorokh> data, files and auth
[13:13] <jacqui> but not something like devise or authlogic in the ruby/rails world
[13:13] <skomorokh> you could put your files in the datastore but i'm not convinced you're going to beat the filesystem/caching already in the kernel
[13:13] <jacqui> or even rack-based auth. this would be something lighter than that.
[13:14] <vsmatck> You beat raw filesystem performance with distributed filesystems when you scale across multiple machines.
[13:14] <skomorokh> maybe not
[13:14] <skomorokh> because you need to describe your data agnostic to your datastore
[13:14] <skomorokh> and so that basically is your model in whatever framework
[13:15] <skomorokh> then you have some auth in that framework that lets you control access to the pieces in the model
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[13:16] <jacqui> you're not talking about something like CAS right?
[13:16] <skomorokh> might be!
[13:17] <skomorokh> i couldn't believe there wasn't something to handle data+roles
[13:17] <jacqui> ticket-based auth style?
[13:17] <skomorokh> ticket, like session token?
[13:17] <jacqui> I didn't enjoy my CAS experience...
[13:17] <jacqui> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Authentication_Service
[13:18] <jacqui> but that was a few years ago. I like the idea.
[13:18] <skomorokh> i think that part is sort-of orthogonal.
[13:18] <skomorokh> just like sasl, etc.
[13:19] <skomorokh> that's just getting the user verified
[13:19] <jacqui> ah yeah, this looks much different: http://code.google.com/p/rubycas-server/
[13:20] <skomorokh> the part i'm not finding is how to wrap something like redis with some access control
[13:20] <jacqui> "RubyCAS-Server is implemented using the Sinatra microframework, and is designed for easy deployment either as a stand-alone server…" that's new to me
[13:20] <jacqui> access control to redis or storing acl rules in redis
[13:20] <skomorokh> redis in particular you don't talk to with http, you talk to from your server side app
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[13:21] #redis: mode change '+v pietern' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[13:21] <skomorokh> but i see the only thing i want my server side app to do is fetch and store my data and determine if i'm allowed to
[13:22] <skomorokh> for everything else aren't i better off using the client's CPU instead?
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[13:28] <sivy> hi folks, I'm getting back into some code that I haven't messed with in a while, and reds-server is throwing this error: https://gist.github.com/fcfe55577d55e962c7c3
[13:29] <sivy> (2.2.6 i think)
[13:29] <pietern> sivy: that config parameter has been deprecated for a long time
[13:29] <sivy> hm, so I can just comment i out?
[13:30] <pietern> or better yet, remove it :)
[13:30] <sivy> pietern: ah, much better :-)
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[13:35] <skomorokh> jacqui: access control to redis but i've now gone and convinced myself that the model pretty much needs to live on the server, for keeping HTTP requests to a sane level if nothing else
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[13:37] <skomorokh> so what's a good stack on top of redis to describe a model on the server and define some access control to it and provide the presentation/ui in client js?
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[13:41] <skomorokh> hm, maybe not the model, maybe just the orm...
[13:42] <skomorokh> but it's not really an orm if there's no r
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[13:56] <sivy> pietern: so, i'm getting redis setup with service (/etc/init.d/) and it won't open the log file (permissions denied) even though the file is present and permissions seem to be correct
[13:57] <sivy> huh
[13:57] <sivy> now seems to have worked
[13:57] <sivy> figures :P
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[14:58] <embwbam> I know people are always saying redis isn't a database. Does this mean that it actually is inappropriate for things other than kv storage and caching, or is it only a comment on its durability?
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[15:10] <nopz___> Hi
[15:10] <nopz___> I have an issue with redis BGSAVE
[15:10] <nopz___> Failed saving the DB: Permission denied
[15:11] <nopz___> drwxr-xr-x 2 redis redis 4096 2012-01-15 15:17 redis
[15:11] <nopz___> -rwxr-xr-x 1 redis redis 102 2012-01-15 15:17 dump.rdb
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[15:36] <vsmatck> Try "ps axu |grep redis" to make sure your redis instance is running as the redis user.
[15:37] <nopz___> yeah it was that
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[15:45] <threedot> hi
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[15:46] <threedot> is there a command to get length of filtered keys
[15:47] <threedot> i'm using "KEYS pattern" and calculate length of result
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[00:00] --- Mon Jan 16 2012