#redis on irc.freenode.net 2011-12-22 (txt)

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[00:14] <temoto> How to truncate set to N lowest items?
[00:14] <temoto> sort foo limit 0 2 store foo works, but it changes type from set to list.
[00:15] <temoto> How do i convert key from list to set again?
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[00:47] <Garo_> how I can get the number of buckets and other details which the main dictionary, or a non-zipmap hash item has?
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[00:49] <Garo_> for example the dict.c has _dictPrintStatsHt, but that doesn't seem to be called from anywhere :(
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[02:12] <solaries_> hi all
[02:13] <solaries_> is it possible to expire a key in a way that it also expires other keys?
[02:13] <solaries_> or better: if "x" is expired I want to remove "x" from a set "s"
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[03:49] <mbuf> is there a way to undefine or unset a value that has been set using SET?
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[03:54] <mbuf> never mind, used setex
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[05:14] #redis: mode change '+v antirez' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[05:16] <alekx> antirez: I'll be here in 2 minute
[05:16] <antirez> alekx: no hurry I'm here for some time
[05:20] <alekx> back
[05:20] <alekx> antirez: both those "problems" made me think of SLAs
[05:21] <alekx> bascially by allowing the client to specify a "timeout" you'd move the switch responsibility to the side in control
[05:21] <alekx> key * timeout 10
[05:21] <alekx> would translate to: if I don't get all keys in 10seconds please cut me off
[05:22] <antirez> alekx: I'm not sure this solves the real issue here
[05:22] <antirez> alekx: when I ask for a big range of objects, I'm ok with using some more time
[05:22] <alekx> a client that would know is going to execute an expensive operation would set the timeout accordingly and would be aware of the implications
[05:23] <alekx> antirez: how would you formulate the real issue?
[05:23] <antirez> alekx: this is impossible from the point of view of the implementaiton
[05:23] <antirez> alekx: imagine this:
[05:23] <antirez> alekx: I send N different commands, like: LRANGE foo bar TIMEOUT 5
[05:23] <antirez> and in a pipeline many different commands
[05:23] <antirez> similar to that, with different timeouts
[05:23] <antirez> all the output objects get mixed in the output buffer
[05:24] <antirez> there is no way to tell what was transferred and what not
[05:24] <antirez> even if, it would be possible
[05:24] <antirez> the problem we are trying to solve here is different
[05:24] <antirez> for Pub/Sub, is the slow receiver, and there is no way for it to set a timeout
[05:24] <alekx> antirez: in the pipeline model the timeout would be set at the pipeline level and not at command level
[05:24] <antirez> alekx: there is no "pipeline level". Pipeline != MULTI/EXEC
[05:25] <antirez> but, even semantically
[05:25] <antirez> it's not correct that the client is forced to set a timeout
[05:25] <alekx> antirez: when he subscribes he could provide a timeout
[05:25] <antirez> clients don't have control about the network bandwidth
[05:25] <alekx> antirez: not force... but has the option to
[05:25] <antirez> yes but this opinion is semantically misleading IMHO
[05:25] <antirez> because
[05:25] <antirez> 1) The client can send a bad TIMEOUT (too long) or not send it at all.
[05:26] <alekx> antirez: semantically it is: give me the response in 10 seconds or nothing
[05:26] <antirez> and still will make the server crashing
[05:26] <antirez> so, what was our goal, that was protecting the server against "bad" clients, is not reached
[05:26] <alekx> antirez: but the responsibility is on his side
[05:26] <antirez> responsible of crashing the server
[05:26] <alekx> antirez: a client could always make the server missbehave
[05:26] <antirez> here the point is: avoid that a client that is doing wrong things can crash the server
[05:26] <antirez> yes but on purpose
[05:27] <antirez> here instead, the client can make the server misbehave without intention
[05:27] <antirez> just because it is making too many objects accumulating in the output buffer
[05:27] <alekx> antirez: you could have a set of default timeout (configurable)
[05:27] <antirez> we need to protect against this
[05:27] <antirez> that's bad as well
[05:27] <antirez> a client in a slow network is perfectly free to ask 10k objects and read it with some time
[05:27] <antirez> the problem is not the time ,but the space taken
[05:28] <alekx> antirez: that's Redis internal problem
[05:28] <alekx> it's not an application/client problem
[05:28] <antirez> yes, but that's issue #93 :)
[05:28] <alekx> LOL :)
[05:28] <antirez> Redis needs to close clients that have an output buffer getting bigger and bigger
[05:28] <antirez> but I think that it is better to don't fix the issue about LRANGE / KEYS / ...
[05:29] <antirez> this is hard to fix well, more likely we'll create problems trying to fix that
[05:29] <antirez> instead, the Pub/Sub thing is very common
[05:29] <antirez> the producer is faster than the consumer…. and booom
[05:29] <antirez> also, Pub/Sub is "push"
[05:29] <antirez> so the client will receive data without asking with a command
[05:29] <alekx> I've discussed this problem a while ago with some experts in the field
[05:30] <alekx> and looked at different approaches... you know what the final advise was?
[05:30] <antirez> I guess, close connection when N pending messages?
[05:30] <alekx> this is an unsolvable problem... move the responsibility to the party that can make the smartest decision
[05:31] <antirez> yes, in this respect it is Redis
[05:31] <antirez> alternatively
[05:31] <alekx> closing a connection with N pending messages is not an "educated decision"
[05:31] <antirez> there is to implement flow control
[05:31] <antirez> I think so actually
[05:31] <alekx> at least if the client is not informed or cannot change that
[05:31] <antirez> flow control is what an engineer will call "the right thing". But does not work properly
[05:32] <antirez> it means to start advising the publisher that it is publishing too fast
[05:32] <alekx> I think I've lost you re: flow contorl
[05:32] <antirez> flow control is a way to add in the protocol informations that the different parties can use to auto-regulate the flow
[05:32] <antirez> so
[05:32] <alekx> I don't think I agree
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[05:32] <antirez> the receiver will start getting messages like" you are too slow"
[05:32] <alekx> there's not a too fast publisher... it's just a slow subscriber
[05:32] <antirez> the publisher will start getting messages like "you are publishing too fast"
[05:33] <antirez> ok but how would you solve the issue?
[05:33] <antirez> there are only two solutions:
[05:33] <antirez> 1) create less messages or.
[05:33] <antirez> 2) enlarge the queue
[05:33] <alekx> 1) you cannot create less messages
[05:33] <antirez> but "2" is bad as not just memory is consumed, also delay is added
[05:33] <alekx> or I'm missing something
[05:34] <antirez> alekx: what you do is to advice the publisher that its messages are not processed fast enough
[05:34] <antirez> alekx: it is up to the application to decide WHAT to do
[05:34] <alekx> antirez: correct
[05:34] <antirez> yes, but I don't like such a "right" approach
[05:35] <antirez> IMHO closing the connection is simpler, raw, but better
[05:35] <alekx> well... then why not dropping messages
[05:35] <antirez> at least from the point of view of Redis Pub/Sub that is fire and forget
[05:35] <antirez> alekx: because no one will notice
[05:35] <alekx> you notify
[05:35] <antirez> this is a form of flow control, then
[05:36] <alekx> you have a special response... dropped N messages
[05:36] <antirez> yes this is a solution indeed, and is a flow control implemented in a different way
[05:36] <antirez> I don't like it personally, but is definitely a solution
[05:36] <antirez> but for this to work
[05:36] <antirez> you need a networking layer that is also able to "insert" messages before the messages pending
[05:36] <antirez> since your control message "you are too slow, messages dropped"
[05:36] <antirez> has to jump the current queue
[05:36] <antirez> and be transmitted ASAP
[05:37] <antirez> Redis can't do that from the point of view of internals btw
[05:37] <antirez> (but I would not implement it anyway)
[05:37] <antirez> but yes, this was among the solutions we checked
[05:37] <antirez> but...
[05:37] <antirez> if we were able to insert messages
[05:38] <antirez> I would definitely inject a special message before dropping the connection in my current planned solution
[05:38] <antirez> "we are exiting since you have a long queue"
[05:38] <antirez> otherwise the client will not be able to tell if it is a networking issue, or it is too slow
[05:38] <alekx> I understand it is an implementation "issue" but I definitely find it more "friendly" then cutting a client off
[05:38] <antirez> agreed, but this would require extreme modifications in the Redis internals
[05:39] <antirez> not something we can do now unfortunately
[05:39] <alekx> antirez: I confess I don't like at all the idea of cutting off a client connection
[05:39] <alekx> on the other hand I do understand what you are saying
[05:39] <antirez> it is the kind of problem where good solutions are complex and require even that the participants are able to handle the control messages you send
[05:39] <antirez> so we can start with this hard solution
[05:39] <alekx> well I guess the ideal would be a solution that uses all these strategies
[05:39] <antirez> and see what users report...
[05:40] <alekx> but it might be an overkill implementation wise
[05:40] <antirez> btw fixing this in this way also fixes half of the problem
[05:40] <antirez> because with Pub/Sub we are ok, no slow receiver can cause out of memory
[05:40] <antirez> but then there is LPUSH/BLPOP side of the matter
[05:40] <antirez> Resque & Co
[05:40] <antirez> in this case, we can't close connections or alike, data goes into a list
[05:41] <antirez> but
[05:41] <antirez> at least… LPUSH will return the current list length
[05:41] <antirez> so it is a form of basic message the "publisher" receives
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[05:42] <alekx> this might not make a lot of sense... but let me throw it out
[05:42] <alekx> memory being the issue here
[05:42] <alekx> what if these slow processing clients are penalized/slowed down by removing their data from the memory
[05:43] <alekx> basically: you are too slow/consuming my messages too slow, I'm spilling these over to disk
[05:43] <alekx> I'll continue to serve you, but until you don't show me you can consume at a high rate... I'm going to be slow too
[05:45] <antirez> alekx: RabbitMQ does this and even more, for Redis we want really a simple solution
[05:46] <alekx> antirez: well I guess then simple would mean either dropping messages or closing connection
[05:46] <antirez> alekx: yes, I think so...
[05:46] <alekx> but it will be a solution particular to this scenario only
[05:46] <antirez> what is better is not clear
[05:47] <alekx> and I don't think you can make consistent over the 3 different scenarios
[05:47] <antirez> if we drop the client
[05:47] <alekx> 1) pub/sub; 2) long pipelined commands; 3) BLPOP
[05:47] <antirez> with the current PUBLISH semantics we get some info back
[05:47] <antirez> since PUBLISH returns the number of clients that (locally) received the message
[05:48] <antirez> if we discard the message, we can still return something back
[05:48] <antirez> but my concern is, resistance
[05:48] <antirez> that is
[05:48] <antirez> if a client got blocked for a software error
[05:48] <antirez> dropping the connection is much better
[05:48] <antirez> it will likely start again
[05:48] <antirez> dropping connection instead will cause it to remain blocked forever
[05:48] <alekx> antirez: you do not know that
[05:49] <antirez> well it is more likely that if we close the connection read() will return 0 and the client will exit
[05:49] <alekx> antirez: I could tell you.. what if I'm processing more data on my machine between 2-4am and that's why I'll be slow
[05:49] <alekx> but I don't want you to disconnect me
[05:49] <antirez> and it is 100% guaranteed that if we just drop messages the receiver will never un block
[05:50] <antirez> alekx: the "window" I suggest makes it a bit more flexible, and will not drop your connection in 2 seconds
[05:50] <antirez> but will require 10 seconds of going over the limit
[05:50] <antirez> this is why I don't want to implement the "close on MAX reached" as other systems implement
[05:50] <alekx> basically you are referring yourself at a timeout
[05:50] <alekx> server side default timeout
[05:50] <antirez> it is not a timeout, it is:
[05:51] <antirez> if you are over the MAX for N seconds, then I close you
[05:51] <antirez> that is better than: if you reached MAX I close
[05:51] <antirez> what we pay is: 10 seconds delay in our reaction
[05:51] <alekx> it is definitely better
[05:51] <antirez> but what we gain is: avoiding a lot of useless connections cloesd
[05:51] <antirez> closed
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[05:52] <alekx> and I think what I've suggested would have been even better from a client perspective
[05:52] <alekx> let the client tell you how fast to cut it off after the threshold is reached
[05:52] <alekx> I can imagine numerous scenarios in which client side processing would vary over time making the client either lag behind or catching up
[05:53] <alekx> antirez: so I'd do something like this
[05:53] <antirez> I think that since the server is affected (crash) this should not be decided by the client, this is why I disagree
[05:53] <alekx> default setting: if you reach MAX I'll cut your connecting in X seconds
[05:53] <alekx> but I'm allowing you (the client) to specify your own Y seconds
[05:54] <antirez> not good, clients will specify 9999 and the server will crash
[05:54] <antirez> we need to protect the server FROM clients :)
[05:54] <antirez> the 10 seconds figure is not random
[05:54] <antirez> at peak PUBLISH speed, 150k/s
[05:54] <antirez> it means 1500000 messages
[05:54] <antirez> that are a few hundreds of megabytes
[05:54] <antirez> more than this is too much
[05:55] <alekx> it is a random number as it depends on what that machine is doing and its hw
[05:55] <antirez> no I mean: with 10 seconds you have a max amount of memory you can use for misbehaving clients
[05:55] <alekx> if I have a 64GB machine I might not care about 1G
[05:55] <antirez> if the client tells you the timeout, you don't have any guarantee
[05:55] <antirez> alekx: then we should make the "10 seconds" configurable
[05:56] <antirez> but server side anyway
[05:56] <alekx> antirez: that's better already
[05:56] <alekx> :D
[05:56] <antirez> the problem is that there were discussions in the mailing list about exposing two config options to the users
[05:56] <antirez> for the user the concept of "close if MAX is reached" is much simpler
[05:57] <alekx> lemme grab a coffee and reanalyze my arguments
[05:57] <antirez> ;)
[05:57] <antirez> I'm going back coding now
[05:57] <antirez> but please if you want send a message in the ML
[05:57] <antirez> to contribute to the discussion
[05:57] <antirez> I'll wait a few days before implementing this
[05:57] <antirez> it is not clear what is going to be the best solution, currently
[05:57] <antirez> so it's not a closed deal
[05:57] <antirez> :)
[05:57] <alekx> it's easier to exchange ideas live... as I can get feedback righ away
[05:57] <antirez> later! And thanks for the ideas
[05:58] <alekx> we could do another session tomorrow
[05:58] <alekx> take care!
[05:58] <antirez> ok :) Ciao
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[08:21] getxsick_ -> getxsick
[08:21] wilmoore (~wilmoore@c-67-190-17-108.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #redis.
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[08:28] antirez (~antirez@host240-18-dynamic.9-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) left irc: Quit: antirez
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[11:32] arek_deepinit (~arek@esposa.patyk.net.pl) joined #redis.
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[12:03] xer0x (~xer0x@static-209-17-135-1.gtcust.grouptelecom.net) left irc: Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com
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[12:08] napperjabber_ -> napperjabber
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[12:23] <mcginleyr1> Hey all, is there a good link to a page on memory costs for the different data structures in redis. I need to spec out memory requirements for a project
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[12:28] <mcginleyr1> nm i'm an idot
[12:28] <mcginleyr1> lol
[12:36] wmoss -> wmoss|away
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[14:13] wmoss -> wmoss|away
[14:14] xemium99 (~Adium@cpe-76-183-128-16.tx.res.rr.com) joined #redis.
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[14:25] #redis: mode change '+v pietern' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
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[14:45] wmoss|away -> wmoss
[14:50] wmoss -> wmoss|away
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[15:02] wilmoore (~wilmoore@c-67-190-17-108.hsd1.co.comcast.net) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
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[15:18] jrydberg_ (~jrydberg@81-235-188-3-no48.tbcn.telia.com) left irc: Quit: This computer has gone to sleep
[15:21] Comandante (~Comandant@68-178-114-200.fibertel.com.ar) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
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[16:04] nu7hatch_ -> nu7hatch
[16:07] thehodge (~thehodge@cpc5-seac20-2-0-cust310.7-2.cable.virginmedia.com) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
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[20:43] <verandor> hello.. has someone experience with redis+php+greatTextValues? it seems that the insert rate drops if the value is greater than (round about) 8000 bytes.. is someone else facing this problem?
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[00:00] --- Fri Dec 23 2011