#redis on irc.freenode.net 2011-11-28 (txt)

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[02:49] <abesto> hi guys. i have some temp-rewriteaof-[0-9]*.aof and temp-[0-9]*.rdb files on a production system. these are safe to remove, right?
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[03:10] <Kosma> I'm not an authoritative source of information, but judging from the source code, yes
[03:10] <Kosma> just make sure no redis process is using them
[03:10] <Kosma> (lsof)
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[03:23] <Guest35914> thanks, i'll do that and remove them if none do
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[03:24] <abesto> (that guest was me)
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[11:48] <perezd> does redis have a multi-master or paired feature that can be hacked?
[11:48] <perezd> ie: slave of one anohter
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[12:03] <perezd> is it a bad idea to make 2 servers slaves of each other?
[12:07] <ron> if you don't get a reply here, you may want to try asking in the google group.
[12:07] <perezd> k
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[12:34] <fzzbt> it doesn't seem to be possible to publish messages while listening to a channel. Is this intentional? Why can't I do both of them in the same connection?
[12:35] <ddilinger> its just the nature of the implementation
[12:35] <ddilinger> each client can run only 1 command at a time
[12:37] <fzzbt> that's pretty gay
[12:37] <ron> umm
[12:38] <ron> redis is single-threaded so..
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[12:49] <a|i> does redis support nested hashes?
[12:49] <ddilinger> a|i: no
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[12:49] <a|i> how to store a json object {a: {b: {c: 0}}} in redis?
[12:50] <a|i> (I need to update the value of c)
[12:50] <a|i> so stringifying does not help.
[12:50] <ron> you don't.
[12:50] <a|i> I don't what?
[12:50] <ron> I mean, redis isn't really suitable for these types of operations.
[12:50] <ddilinger> well, you can store json strings in redis
[12:51] <ddilinger> its just another string
[12:51] <ddilinger> what you cant do is request sub-properties from the json
[12:51] <ron> right, but he wants to update c directly, and he can't.
[12:51] <ddilinger> you get the whole string, or nothing
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[12:51] <ddilinger> you could do it with LUA and scripting
[12:51] <ron> redis isn't a document database.
[12:51] <ddilinger> that understands JSON, but its not production ready
[12:51] <a|i> the thing is, if I only want to update a tiny branch, I don't want to update the _whole_ tree.
[12:52] <a|i> ddilinger: LUA?
[12:52] <ddilinger> google redis-scripting
[12:52] <ron> well, either update the whole thing or don't use redis. I wouldn't go down the LUA path just yet.
[12:52] <ddilinger> a|i: the top few should be blog posts at antirez.com, hes the redis lead dev
[12:52] <ddilinger> like i said, its not production ready
[12:52] <a|i> yes, LUA = lua language?
[12:53] <ddilinger> yes
[12:53] <a|i> how unstable is it?
[12:53] <a|i> the blog date is from 6 motnhs ago.
[12:53] <ddilinger> because its a feature he wanted to put out there and get responses about
[12:53] <ddilinger> so that at a future time they had enough info to make it proper for production
[12:54] <ddilinger> but if i understand correctly, focus is on redis cluster before redis scripting gets pushed out
[12:54] <a|i> ddilinger: how can the scripting been applied to the nested hash problem?
[12:54] <ddilinger> a|i: it can be applied to the JSON problem
[12:55] <a|i> ok, how is it linked to the json problem?
[12:55] <ddilinger> a|i: a lua script can, atomically, request the json string, decode it, change one value, and put it back
[12:55] <ddilinger> with the guarantee that no other request will read or change the string between the read and the write
[12:56] <a|i> so, to change 1 branch, we have to update the whole tree?
[12:56] <a|i> how is this different to calling the current redis api?
[12:56] <ddilinger> the difference --> with the guarantee that no other request will read or change the string between the read and the write
[12:56] <ron> less round trips.
[12:56] <ron> well, you can do that without the script as well, to an extent.
[12:56] <ddilinger> its not the same
[12:56] <a|i> the atomicity is not my first problem.
[12:56] <ddilinger> multi/exec might try and re-run the same command a dozen times
[12:57] <ron> I was referring to watch, but okay.
[12:57] <ddilinger> i meant watch :)
[12:57] <a|i> the first performance problem is that, if the tree is huge, a lot of resource is wasted on decoding/encoding the tree for a little branch.
[12:57] <ddilinger> a|i: so then you should be thinking about how to store it so its not such a big tree
[12:57] <ron> why not use a document db for that then?
[12:58] <a|i> because they suck?
[12:58] <ddilinger> yea, it does sound like you are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole
[12:58] <a|i> you mean mongo or couch?
[12:58] <ddilinger> redis is not the server your looking for
[12:58] <ron> yup.
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[12:58] <a|i> couchdb has been kicked out of apache
[12:58] <ron> okay.
[12:58] <a|i> ..because they couldm't keep their performance promise.
[12:58] <ron> redis isn't even part of Apache.
[12:59] <a|i> and recently on hacker new there were reports about fake benchmarking of mongodb.
[12:59] <ron> or any other open source foundation for that matter.
[12:59] <ron> who cares about external benchmarks?
[12:59] <ron> external benchmarks normally mean absolutely nothing.
[12:59] <a|i> it was official mongo benchmark :)
[12:59] <ron> it's still external to your use case.
[12:59] <ron> it's irrelevant.
[13:00] <a|i> I have benchmarked the document based ones, they were only 2x or 3x faster than mysql.
[13:00] <ron> on a single server, maybe.
[13:01] <a|i> they still hit the disk..
[13:01] <a|i> I want a memory-based solution.
[13:01] <ron> that depends on the dataset size and the amount of memory you have.
[13:01] <a|i> why is that redis does not implement nested hashes?
[13:01] <a|i> performance problems?
[13:01] <ron> if your dataset is small enough to fit in memory, you can set mongo to store it all in memory and not hit the disk.
[13:02] <ron> I think redis doesn't implement nested hashes for the same reason it doesn't implement nested sets.
[13:02] <a|i> ron: I cannot convince other developers to use nosql as the primary db.
[13:02] <ron> but redis is also generally considered a nosql database :)
[13:02] <ron> it's just in-memory.
[13:02] <a|i> we are using redis nosql as secondary db.
[13:03] <ron> okay.
[13:03] <a|i> having mongo as secondary is... bloated.
[13:03] <ron> it's not bloated if it's the right solution.
[13:03] <a|i> how bad is i if the value of a hash is the key to another hash, to make a nested hash?
[13:04] <ron> if you don't mind the extra round trips when you read the data, not bad at all.
[13:04] <ron> though it feels like you're raping redis.
[13:04] <a|i> with pipelining, there should be no roundtrip?
[13:04] <a|i> well, just 1?
[13:05] <ron> no. even with pipelining there would be roundtrips.
[13:05] <a|i> wat?
[13:05] <ron> in fact, pipelining will show no increase in performance for that use case.
[13:05] <a|i> what is a roundtrip?
[13:06] <ron> a trip to and from the server (i.e. redis)
[13:06] <a|i> so if I have N commands, I have N roundtrips to the server and back?
[13:07] <ddilinger> only if command N+1 depends on command N's result
[13:07] <ron> right.
[13:07] <a|i> so if I pipeline the N commands, how many roundtrips would I get?
[13:07] <ron> only if the requests are synchronous. and for your use case, they are.
[13:07] <a|i> (for the synced case)
[13:08] <ron> N synced commands, N roundtrips.
[13:08] <a|i> what the heck does pipelining do then?
[13:08] <ron> it's excellent for async commands.
[13:08] <ron> which is the more common use case.
[13:09] <a|i> why would the json case be synced?
[13:09] <ron> because one requests depends on the on the response of the previous requests.
[13:09] <ron> err... requests being request. in both cases.
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[13:10] <ron> ddilinger: feel free to jump in if you think I talk nonsense.
[13:10] <ron> :)
[13:10] <ddilinger> well, yes pipelineing is for requesting many of the same things
[13:10] <ddilinger> say you storing things in object:<id> and you have a sorted set somewhere
[13:10] <ddilinger> first comand you get a list of ids
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[13:11] <ddilinger> then you pipeline get object:<id> for every id
[13:11] <ron> I used pipelining in my previous project, and it was excellent for performance. but the requests were independent.
[13:11] <ddilinger> ya, if somehow your app could pre-know what values it wants from redis, it could pipeline request them all ahead of time
[13:12] <ron> right.
[13:12] <ddilinger> usefull for setting keys to
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[13:12] <ddilinger> you can set a bunch of keys at once no need to check result untill they are all sent
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[13:14] <ron> anyways, I'd strongly consider using a document db for what you've mentioned so far. if you want to go down the road of forcing it upon redis, I have a feeling you'll come back here soon enough complaining that redis sucks :)
[13:14] <ron> gotta love those blog posts - "I abused the technology, so it must be crap!" ;)
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[13:14] <a|i> ron: I don't find the doc dbs fast enough.
[13:15] <ron> I doubt you gave them a real try.
[13:15] <ron> and if all fails, create a little in-memory document db of your own.
[13:15] <a|i> if you really want to go from sql to nosql, it'd better have an impact of at least 1 orde of magnitude, ie 10x.
[13:16] <a|i> moving to mongo/couch to gain 3x speed is not worth it.
[13:16] <ron> performance is *not* the only reason to move from sql to nosql.
[13:16] <a|i> well, t is for me :)
[13:16] <ddilinger> i thought most of them were about horizontal scaling
[13:16] <ddilinger> in the design golas
[13:16] ron nods at ddilinger
[13:16] <ddilinger> s/golas/goals/
[13:17] <ddilinger> so instead of faster, they make 'more' easy :)
[13:17] <ron> they also normally offer increase read and/or write performance, but that normally comes at the expense of other features.
[13:17] <ron> the real performance gain is by scaling, not by switching to them.
[13:18] <ron> but, you know best what you need, so good luck with all that :)
[13:19] <ron> btw, which programming language do you use? just out of curiosity.
[13:19] <a|i> ron: most unfortunately it's rails.
[13:19] <a|i> god damn slow.
[13:19] <a|i> not my choice.
[13:19] <ron> well, at least you didn't say php.
[13:20] <a|i> php is fast, it runs facebook (I know they compile it to c++)
[13:20] ron sighs
[13:20] <a|i> the problem with rails is people who wrote it knew as much mysql as I know. it generated far fromoptimised sql queries.
[13:21] <ddilinger> all languages(that i use) are slow, i just get used to it :P
[13:21] <a|i> now you want to say rails is fast, it runs twitter,.. well it doesn't
[13:21] <a|i> they use jvm.
[13:21] <ddilinger> github runs ruby
[13:22] <a|i> sometimes the topic on #ror (ruby on rails) is: yeah rails is slow,.. if your app needs to scale, don't use it, now leave here.
[13:22] <a|i> ddilinger: isn't github down/slow all the time?
[13:22] <ddilinger> a|i: not when i use it
[13:22] <ron> uh, no?
[13:22] <a|i> no?
[13:22] <ron> nope.
[13:23] <ddilinger> a|i: i use github a couple times a week, it always pops right up
[13:23] <ron> it's because they use redis though ;)
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[13:23] <a|i> they do.
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[13:23] <a|i> it was really bad up to 2010.
[13:23] <ddilinger> it is possible they dont use rails though, i have no clue what their code looks like. but it is ruby
[13:24] <ron> one of the github dudes hangs out around here, don't remember his nick though.
[13:24] <a|i> https://github.com/blog/530-how-we-made-github-fast
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[13:25] <a|i> http://www.slideshare.net/err/inside-github
[13:25] <ron> yeah, they still use rails.
[13:25] <pietern> fzzbt: it's not possible because that would require adding in multiplexing on top of the existing protocol
[13:25] <a|i> that slide shows the arch.
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[13:26] <pietern> we rather let the OS multiplex than adding it in ourselves,
[13:26] <pietern> only to support publishing on a connection that can receive arbitrary messages..
[13:26] <a|i> of course, like any runy developers 30% of their presentation is the bullshit about me and me and myself and how cool I am.
[13:26] <a|i> s/runy/ruby
[13:29] <kppullin> lol
[13:31] <a|i> ron: MongoDB issues writes in unsafe ways by default in order to win benchmarks [http://nosql.mypopescu.com/post/12466059249/anonymous-post-dont-use-mongodb]
[13:31] <fzzbt> pietern: ok
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[13:35] <ron> a|i: told you before. I don't care about the benchmarks,
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[13:35] <a|i> ron: it's not all about the benchmark, pre 1.8 mono had a bug deleting the whole db.
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[13:36] <a|i> if there wasn't something fishy about mongo, that pastebin wouldn't be out.
[13:37] <ron> a|i: all real applications have critical bugs. even redis.
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[14:30] <savage-> hi
[14:30] <savage-> is there a way to get the amount of memory taken up by a single database?
[14:30] <savage-> or is it per instance?
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[15:13] Nuck -> NuckOff
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[15:44] <jtoy> ifi want to pop 1k items from a list, is there a faster way then calling lpop 1k times? its a bottleneck for me now
[15:47] <ddilinger> jtoy: dont think so, i imagine pipelining doesn't help much?
[15:47] <jtoy> ddilinger: im looking into trying that
[15:47] <ddilinger> jtoy: if your not pipelineing, it will make a big difference
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[15:48] <ddilinger> jtoy: right now its req->resp->req->resp->etc
[15:48] <ddilinger> jtoy: pipeline is req->req->req->req->req...
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[15:48] <jtoy> i was looking into possibly doing pipieline with lrange and ltrim, not sure if that is safe though
[15:49] <ddilinger> it is with multi/exec
[15:49] <jtoy> ddilinger: do you happen to know which is faster?
[15:50] <ddilinger> jtoy: well, i would guess ~5 commands(watch <key>;zscore <key>:zrange <key> <num>;ztrim;exec) would be faster than 1000 commands, but best to write a quick benchmark with your use case
[15:50] <ddilinger> er, throw a multi between zscore and zrange
[15:50] <ddilinger> but you get the idea :)
[15:50] <ddilinger> may not even need the zscore, not sure
[15:51] <jtoy> list commands, not set commands
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[15:51] <ddilinger> err yea, you know what i meant though :)
[15:53] <jtoy> :) thx ddilinger
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[19:15] <vamsi> Hi, can I add user name and password mechanish
[19:15] <vamsi> to redis
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[19:17] <vsmatck> There is a AUTH command. It sends in plaintext.
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[19:18] <vamsi> I have added the password in redis.conf file. but is there user system at all ?
[19:18] <vsmatck> no, no usernames.
[19:19] <vamsi> ok..thanks for confirming it .. :)
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[19:35] <luiscota> anyone know where i can get a windows build of webdis?
[19:35] luiscota -> queonda
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[20:59] <perezd> when using psubscribe, is this possible foo.*.bar >
[20:59] <perezd> ?
[20:59] <perezd> can't find any complex glob examples
[20:59] <perezd> it says "all usual globs are supported" not sure what usual is
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[21:46] <chip__> hi, is there a way i can store maps directly into a redis database in the same way lists and sets are being stored
[21:48] <ron> hashes?
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[21:55] <chip__> ron, just saw hashes working on it :-) thanks
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[00:00] --- Tue Nov 29 2011