#redis on irc.freenode.net 2011-10-29 (txt)

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[00:24] alessioalex hello
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[09:36] <kryl> hi
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[15:34] <Kronuz> hello
[15:34] <Kronuz> hey, how come I can't connect to the redis server using netcat?
[15:35] <Kronuz> am I doing something wrong with `nc localhsot 6379` ?
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[15:35] <Kronuz> telnet does work...
[15:37] <petercooper> I'm guessing it's connecting but not answering your commands?
[15:38] <petercooper> If I had to hazard a guess it's due to line termination
[15:38] <petercooper> for example, try this instead: (echo -e "info\r\n"; sleep 1) | nc localhost 6379
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[21:05] <Nuck> Any way to lodge an array in an object?
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[23:01] <Brend> Nuck: Lodge? Object?
[23:02] <Nuck> Brend: Yes, the equivalent to storing {"thing": ["a", "b"]} in a Redis value
[23:03] <Brend> Nuck: What sort of things are you going to do with the array?
[23:03] <Nuck> Brend: Retrieve it and then grab the values for the keys in there :P
[23:03] <Brend> (Perhaps you just want a key of "objtype:objID", whose value is a list)
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[23:04] <Nuck> I have two arrays and a few other things in there
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[23:04] <Nuck> Essentially, I'd have 3-4 entries
[23:04] <Nuck> And to do 3-4 keys, it feels really icky
[23:04] <Brend> You're talking about hashes, I guess
[23:05] <Nuck> Brend: Yeah, that's probably the closest thing
[23:05] <Nuck> But I can't nest a list in a hash?
[23:06] <Brend> No. Hash values are just strings
[23:06] <Brend> (Obviously you can encode whatever you like in there, including arrays of things, but Redis won't do special manipulation on it for you)
[23:07] <Brend> FWIW I don't think I've ever used a hash
[23:07] <Nuck> Hmmm
[23:07] <Nuck> So I could prolly just JSON.stringify() the array
[23:08] <Nuck> I assume the receiving end is no faster to parse the stringed data than that anyways
[23:08] <Brend> Yep, if it isn't very big, and if concurrent updates aren't an issue
[23:08] <Brend> Redis' lists are for when you care about things like atomic push/pop
[23:09] <Nuck> Brend: Well, I think I can live without
[23:09] <Nuck> That could make my life very easy
[23:10] <Nuck> Any advice on how to create unique identifiers automatically?
[23:10] <ron> UUID?
[23:10] <Nuck> Like how Mongo has ObjectIds and SQL has the incremented IDs?
[23:10] <vsmatck> INNNCRRRRRRRRRRRR!
[23:10] <Nuck> Just, like, set up some keys and INCR them?
[23:10] <Nuck> (honestly, the extra query won't hurt me since Redis is so blazing fast)
[23:11] <Brend> There's some discussion in the intro (see "a digression"): http://redis.io/topics/data-types-intro
[23:12] <Brend> (Personally I have a big thing about using only derived keys)
[23:12] <Nuck> Yeah, I think I'll just use an incremented counter
[23:12] <Brend> (It's probably pretty safe to say that if you manage to collide a SHA1 hash then you already ran out of memory a long time ago and are using the wrong datastore)
[23:13] <Nuck> It seems far better for me :P
[23:13] <Nuck> Well, what about when we get Redis Cluster? ;)
[23:13] <Nuck> Then there's no such thing as running out of RAM
[23:13] <Nuck> incrementing is easier (and more efficient, and doesn't change with updates)
[23:14] <Brend> Yeah, but it also fills your data up with opaque IDs that you can't derive from anything else
[23:14] <Nuck> Also, is there a printable copy of redis.io/commands
[23:14] <vsmatck> So this is totally random. I was reading about NUMA and large memory footprint processes.
[23:14] <Brend> (Also, clusters that make consistency guarantees don't scale indefinitely)
[23:14] <Nuck> Brend: Don't care, I just need them to be unique and point to eachother
[23:15] <Nuck> That's the entire goal
[23:15] <vsmatck> The redis design has no issue with NUMA because you size your redis servers to the size of a memory bank. Avoid the whole issue.
[23:15] <Nuck> I need something roughly similar to a graph model because, well, I probably should be using a Graph DB
[23:16] <vsmatck> yeah redis is not good for graphs. Or any data with more than simple relations.
[23:16] <Brend> Redis isn't currently very good at being a graph DB, though that may change when scripting arrives
[23:16] <Nuck> But I can't. Because the only graph db that's ready for the limelight is neo4j, which means I'd be binding Java to NodeJS which sounds unfun
[23:16] <Brend> Then again I haven't found any other graph DB that isn't horrifying
[23:16] <Nuck> I know, but it's fast and that's enough to make it better than any other options except true graph dbs ;)
[23:18] <Nuck> Relational databases are not good for relations, nor are document-oriented databases, and I'm not building on a map-reduce instance simply because I doubt MR will work with the insane asynchronous recursive function I've written, plus I barely know MR, and it'd mean learning another complex tech and yeah
[23:18] Nuck faints
[23:18] <Nuck> So Redis
[23:19] <Nuck> When graph databases mature, I'll probably move my daya
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[23:19] <vsmatck> There are degrees of goodness of dealing with relations of data. Relational database with something like foreign keys is better than something like redis.
[23:19] <Nuck> But until then I think I'll survive
[23:20] <vsmatck> I think it's all pretty much about having the database enforce relations in data. If you leave it up to the application developer he'll mess it up.
[23:20] <Nuck> haha the relations are simply
[23:20] <Nuck> I just need to state that A inherits B
[23:20] <Nuck> And then I flatten it
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[23:22] <vsmatck> I like what mongo does. I mean if you marshal your data in to one value in redis and all you care about is how the data within that value is related than that's perfectly enforced.
[23:23] <vsmatck> But it's only suitable for some problems. I'm making a general point. *shrug*
[23:23] <Nuck> I'm using Mongo for much of my data, but it's too slow for what I want
[23:24] <Nuck> I need to be able to make 20+ requests in a very short amount of time
[23:24] <Nuck> So a Redis instance very nearby to my Node.js server will probably be as fast as I can possibly get :P
[23:24] <Nuck> (beyond running right on the server)
[23:24] <Nuck> (which would be awesome)
[23:25] <vsmatck> True that. :)
[23:25] <Nuck> I can do a full 20-entry recrsive resoltuion in a few ms with a local redis server
[23:26] <Nuck> (with my current model)
[23:26] <Nuck> May be faster once I have hashes and am ablt to just JSON.parse() the two arrays out
[23:27] <Nuck> Actually
[23:27] <Nuck> I wonder if it might even be faster to just store the entire object as a string >_>
[23:28] <Nuck> Very, very tempting
[23:29] <vsmatck> I generally try to not demoralize to one value, when I need to only get at parts of that value. I mean sometimes it makes sense. For example I've heard of people demoralizing user permissions down to one bitfield, then getting that whole bitfield everytime they need to check a permission.
[23:30] <Nuck> well, it's a question of performance vs. storage
[23:30] <vsmatck> "demoralize" hah.. I mean denormalize.
[23:30] <Nuck> I'm willing to sacrifice storage in favor of performance
[23:30] <vsmatck> yeah, agree. Tradeoff that's highly relative to the application.
[23:30] <Nuck> However, I imagine this is minor enough that it won't be enough
[23:30] <Brend> Nuck: Sticking whole objects in as JSON is what I mostly do
[23:31] <vsmatck> Some people get pretty nuts with stuff. Namely the ORM people.
[23:31] <Nuck> vsmatck: Which ORM?
[23:31] <Nuck> Because I use an ORM >_>
[23:31] <Nuck> Mongoose :D
[23:31] <Brend> Oh no, Mongo
[23:31] <Nuck> Brend: Orly?
[23:31] Nuck <3 Mongo
[23:32] <Nuck> It may not scale, but it sure is easy
[23:32] <Nuck> Wait
[23:32] <Nuck> I see EVAL in the commands list?
[23:32] <Nuck> Didn't one of you mention about server-side scrpting?
[23:33] <Nuck> Ohey it's in 2.6
[23:33] <vsmatck> ORMs are a productivity tradeoff. Often they lead to inefficient lookup of data. <- IMO.
[23:33] <Nuck> ORM meaning Object-Relational Mapper or...?
[23:33] <vsmatck> yeah
[23:33] <petercooper> or car crash OO
[23:33] <Brend> My only problem with ORMs is that most of them seem to be written by people who have no idea what a database is or how to use one.
[23:33] <Nuck> Yeah those suck
[23:33] <Nuck> I stick to Mongoose, a simple thing that wraps Mongodb
[23:34] <Brend> Nuck: Does it encourage stupid things like loading an entire document, tweaking one field, and then saving the entire document back to the DB?
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[23:35] <vsmatck> Seems like a document store would be nicer to use with a ORM than redis would.
[23:35] <Nuck> Brend: I think it gives you that illusion but actually uses in-place updates ;)
[23:35] <Brend> Nuck: Let's hope!
[23:35] <Nuck> Who the hell would put an ORM on Redis? o_O
[23:35] <Nuck> Brend: It's used by LearnBoost and Geeklist
[23:35] <Brend> Nuck: I totally have a Redis ORM
[23:35] <Nuck> And soon we'll add Artuous to that list :D
[23:35] Nuck hearts his startup
[23:36] <Nuck> Brend: Oh god no
[23:36] Nuck flees
[23:36] <Brend> https://github.com/brendonh/yiidis/blob/master/yii/modules/Yiidis/components/RedisModel.php
[23:36] <Nuck> HOW DO YOU EVEN DO THAT?
[23:36] <Nuck> Redis isn't even relational!
[23:36] <Nuck> How do you map to relational when wat
[23:36] <Brend> Mongo isn't relational either
[23:36] <Brend> So what's your point!
[23:37] <Nuck> Brend: Mongoose isn't an ORM as in Object Relational MApper
[23:37] <Brend> The "Relational" in "Object Relational Mapper" isn't referring to foreign keys
[23:37] <Brend> A relation is just a row in a table.
[23:37] <Nuck> Object-Relational Mapping, a software-programming issue in linking object-oriented code with relational databases
[23:38] <Nuck> I think Mongoos is this:
[23:38] <Nuck> "Object role modeling, a method for conceptual modeling."
[23:38] <petercooper> these people ;-) https://github.com/soveran/ohm
[23:38] <Brend> Oh yeah, those guys too
[23:38] <Brend> Mine is just a JSON wrapper really.
[23:38] <Nuck> (that's super easy in Node.js)
[23:39] <Nuck> JSON.stringify() it and save
[23:39] <Nuck> Problem solved
[23:39] <Nuck> I'll probably do that
[23:39] <Brend> JSON encoding is exactly that easy in every other language too.
[23:39] <Nuck> Thanks to Crockford
[23:40] <Nuck> JSON is a wonderful thing
[23:40] <Nuck> (and it's also why I love Mongo - I'm willing to sacrifice anything just for that queryable JSON)
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[23:45] <Nuck> Ayways, thanks for the advice on my use of Redis :)
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[00:00] --- Sun Oct 30 2011